CARLA LICAVOLI / TOWNSPEOPLE/ BROOKLYN BUBBLE
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Here, in my
Brooklyn Bubble, where diversity of thought, ethnicity and economics is the
norm, it’s not often you meet someone who converses with kindness and candor while cutting straight to the point. So when
I met Carla
Licavoli, another open-minded Brooklyn transplant, I found myself asking revelatory
questions of a perfect stranger. My hope was to walk away having shared something
meaningful with someone who'd left such an incredible impression.
Two weeks ago, at the completion of an unused, purposeless back room into a well-designed laundry space, photographer Carla Licavoli visited my home. My contractor, Drakes Carpentry, hired Carla to photograph the laundry room for his 2017 brochure. After she was done, we discussed my experience with Drakes Carpentry; I had only good things to say. How we stumbled upon the conversation that inspired this interview, I don't recall. Though I do remember it being one of the most honest conversations I've ever had about race.
Carla shared
stories of her upbringing in Detroit, of her parents’ perspectives on race,
however different from her own, and of being the recipient of discriminatory
comments from black women. I wondered what it felt like to be on the receiving
end of comments like that. Carla's candor was surprising; she answered every
question I threw at her. Her willingness to share made me want to know her
better. Understanding ours was a chance encounter happening amid an unsettling Presidential campaign, the conversation spoke volumes about what connects us as women/wives married to
black men, and as mothers relishing this Brooklyn Bubble as we prepare our
children for the world.
Townspeople asks
the difficult questions of a white woman concerned with the many dangers facing her family under a Trump administration. You'll find Carla Licavoli is a woman to be
reckoned with; she does not mince words when acknowledging how black women
get labeled "angry” if/when
they speak out, recognizing that this would never happen to her: "I'm allowed to speak my mind without any worries about how
it may be received in reference to my ethnicity."
Carla Licavoli
talks Race, the Brooklyn Bubble, Town and Takeaways.
talks Race, the Brooklyn Bubble, Town and Takeaways.
TP: During our conversation, you mentioned a time you
visited Detroit with your boys and had an interesting experience at a local
fair. Explain:
CL: We were
at a street fair and we ran into an acquaintance of my mom's with her grandson.
My boys at the time are maybe two and four. I have them looking so cute in
their little polo shirts, pushing them in their double stroller. I
had heard the story of this child from my mom because the child is biracial. It
was an unexpected pregnancy of a white girl by a black man and the man didn't
stick around (the implied "as usual" always looming in every
conversation about this situation). So this white grandmother is walking her
biracial grandson through the street fair, his hair is a mess, his
clothes are a mess, it's actually quite sad. She spots me and my boy, in their
pristine outfits and glistening hair, come over and says "Look Ben, kids
like you." The shock, disgust, anger that I felt in that instant followed
by the deep sadness that this sweet little boy had to grow up in a house like
that, being made to feel like he was different. Ugh! I wanted to
grab his hand and take him with me. So I politely said to the woman, so as not
to cause a scene in front of my children, "I'm going to walk away now
before I say something I'm going to regret".
TP: Growing up, what was the racial climate in Detroit?
CL: Detroit was incredibly segregated. People of different ethnicities didn't mix. I went to a catholic school on the East Side of Detroit that was 95% white in a city that was only 30% white. We had maybe one black family at our school and almost no interaction with anyone that wasn't white.
TP: How did your parents respond to the racial climate in
Detroit? How do your parents respond to the racial climate in America today?
CL: I don't think my parents did respond to the racial climate. They kept separate. My dad was a Detroit firefighter, so there were the black guys he worked with, that he trusted with his life and then there were the residents of Detroit that in his view, were destroying their city and ruining it for the rest of us. Black people were put into two categories, good ones and bad ones and the good ones were rare.
Their views
haven't really changed. We have had some deep and trying discussions in the
last six months with the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement. My husband,
sons and I walked in March in Fort Greene, Brooklyn in August after the murders
of Philando Castile and Alton Sterling. I expressed my fear about every time my
husband walks out of our home on social media and my mother responded how I
don't have to worry, he's one of the
good ones. This sparked a ferocious debate with lots of my friends trying
to explain to my mother why what she said was wrong and her answer to all of it
was "All Lives Matter". It has caused a huge divide in our
relationship and has caused arguments between my parents and my sisters as
well. My parents just cannot see how they are complicit in any measure of racism
because they love their grandchildren and son in law, yet don't recognize the
fact that my husband and children are viewed by a large chunk of society as
dangerous or criminals.
TP: How do “race” conversations had in your childhood home
compare to ones you’re having now? Explain.
CL: We never discussed race in my childhood home. We had to move out of the city because the crime was out of control. Our house had been broken into several times (all by white men) yet the feeling was that black people were ruining the city. So we moved to the suburbs, like so many city workers at that time.
Our first
discussions on race began when I started dating my husband in 2004. My parents
didn't want to meet him. I told them they didn't have to. I knew
that this was serious and I didn't want to push anything on them that they were
uncomfortable with. I told them it was their choice and they never had to meet
him if they didn't want to but he was going to be in my life and by shutting
him out, they would also be shutting me out. Eventually my mother came around
because she felt her mother, my grandmother who loved everyone, would have been
ashamed of how she was acting. So, Andre and I boarded a plane and
flew to Detroit to meet my family. I didn't realize then what a leap of faith
he was making. How hard that must have been for him, knowing he was pre-judged
before he even walked in the door. Of course everyone loved him. I
heard things like "he's so well-spoken" and my dad telling his
friends how educated André was. Justifying to their friends that
he's one of the "good ones". And not being "woke" at the
time, I was happy. I thought all was good and my parents had overcome their
years of bias and racism.
TP: You mentioned a disturbing situation at a local
ballet school your friend's daughter attends, and you appeared utterly put off.
Would you mind sharing this story with Brooklyn Chateau readers?
CL: My friend’s eight-year-old daughter is an amazing dancer. She dances at a school in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn and is one of the only black children at the school. Every year they put on a production of the Nutcracker and when you reach a certain level you get to be a girl in the party scene. The director at the school had assured my friend that her daughter would be a girl in this scene. Due to a shortage of other roles they also asked her to be a mouse and a soldier in other scenes. Then when it comes time to give out the roles, my friend’s daughter finds out she’s a boy in the party scene. My friend questioning the director asks why when she was told that she would be a girl and the director tells her that because of the other roles she’s in, where she has to wear a hat, the girls dancing in scene are supposed to have bouncing curls and they just don’t know how her [black] hair will transition between roles.
My friend,
outraged and in tears, tells me this story as we are working on a photo shoot
together. I am livid. I tell her why isn’t she screaming at these
people, why isn’t she posting things about this school online, why isn’t she
pulling her kids from the school where she spends hundreds of dollars every
month. She says “I don’t want to be the angry black woman.” My
heart broke. You can’t even be outraged for an injustice your child
has suffered because you don’t want to be viewed as “the angry black woman”. I
told her I would go down there and scream on her behalf. I can do
that. I can lose my temper at someone and never would I be judged as
the “angry white woman”. It’s a perfect example of white privilege. I’ve
never had to restrict my outrage for fear of judgment. I’m allowed
to speak my mind without any worries about how it may be received in reference
to my ethnicity.
TP: At their young ages, have your boys experienced racial
discrimination or prejudice of any kind? If yes, how have you responded?
CL: I don’t think so. We live in the Brooklyn Bubble and they go to a school where it is more rare to have families coming from similar ethnic backgrounds. When we travel we have been fortunate to not encounter any issues...yet. It may change as we make our way to the Midwest for Christmas this year.
TP: How do you think the race of your sons affects your
concerns for their future?
CL: I’m scared. My oldest son has oppositional defiance disorder (ODD) and ADHD. He’s big for his age. My biggest fear is that he will be in a situation where a police officer will tell him to do something and he won’t comply. I know that black boys are at a huge disadvantage in the eyes of the law, in school and in society in general. I also don’t want them to feel “other”, “less than” or even different. I worry that the images they see could influence how they see themselves. I try to really control what movies they see, shows they watch and books they read so that they don’t feel any less advantaged than anyone else.
TP: As mothers (for the most part), we become ferocious when
our children fall in harm’s way. That said how do you feel regarding our
President elect?
CL: I feel like the President elect has emboldened the racists in our country. They feel like they can say what they want without consequences. I think as a symbol for our nation, he makes me embarrassed to be American. I try to look at it through a global lens and I was really proud for the last eight years.
I feel like
the President elect puts us all in danger and if you think because you are
white, you are safe, you are so wrong. If he starts a war… we are
all in danger. If he makes a bad choice for Supreme Court justice,
all of our civil liberties are at risk.
TP: What's your take on raising children in our Brooklyn
Bubble?
CL: I love our Brooklyn Bubble! I think it’s a perfect place to raise kids because they are free to be whatever they want to be. Free to explore whom they are with other open-minded kids and families. Another parent at my kids’ school said something to me that really helped me put it all in perspective. “We live in our Brooklyn Bubble and it’s great but our job under this new administration is to make our bubble grow.” I love that concept. Expanding our safe haven of ethnic, gender and religious acceptance until there is no place where we are unsafe.
TL: How does it compare to your childhood in Detroit?
CL: There’s no comparison. I was raised with no diversity. No political conversation. No conversation about sexuality. I was raised catholic. Went to catholic school. My parents made sure we were cared for in all the basic ways, food, shelter, education, etc. I think they did the best that they knew how.
TP: How will you prepare your sons for the "real"
world?
CL: I think the best thing we can do is to be honest with them. I don't want to scare them but I don't want to sugar coat it either. I want them to know that many people in this world will view them as dangerous. I also want to instill in them a sense of social justice, a responsibility to take care of others as well as themselves. I think that is the disconnect between my parents and myself. I spoke to my dad today and was trying to explain to him why Trump is so scary to so many. He explained how he's getting a tax break and how everyone will calm down once they get theirs. It's like he can't see anything outside of his wallet. I want my sons to remember that their actions, whether it's voting for someone or buying a responsibly sourced product, all has a greater impact than just how it affects you, personally. When you make choices, think of all of the people that those choices affect beside yourself. I think if I can help them look at the bigger picture, I can help them to be better citizens of the world.
My husband
and I already had the police talk with them about how to respond if an officer
stops you. I never imagined having that talk with my children but my husband’s
mom had that talk with him and because of the current state of affairs, we are
having that talk with our 8 and 6 year old. It's so sad.
TP: Do you have an opinion on why black women make
discriminatory comments against you and your husband?
CL: I don't really have an opinion on it. I think it says more about them than about me. I try to ignore it. It is harder on my husband. He said that he was used to everyone hating on him except for black people and that being with me, he now had to endure more hate from his own people.
TP: What are your views on white privilege and how has it
changed after having children?
CL: It's real. I didn't know I had it until actually very recently. I've been trying to educate myself on the black experience, reading and watching documentaries, and I see it. I feel it. It's a real thing. I am more aware of it when speaking with other white people. Especially when talking with Trump supporters and how they were able to look past his list of racist comments because it would never affect them. Being a mother of black boys has forced me to see the world through their eyes and see how the eyes of the world look at them.
TP: Are you an optimist or a pessimist?
CL: Optimist, for sure. I have to be. I have to hope that the world is getting better. My kids won't know the term “gay marriage” they'll just know it as “marriage”. I love that! I had hoped their first two presidents would be a black man and a woman and I had so much hope for that...but that is not the case, though the next person might be a woman or a person of color. I think the Millennials are moving past racial and gender norms in a way no other generation has done. I think my boys will come into adulthood in a more open-minded society and that gives me hope.
Carla's Beauty Blueprint:
What
time of day do you feel most beautiful?
When I'm doing something I love, like taking pictures and when I'm at the beach.
Describe your any day/go everywhere face:
Tinted moisturizer and mascara
When I'm doing something I love, like taking pictures and when I'm at the beach.
Describe your any day/go everywhere face:
Tinted moisturizer and mascara
What's in your make-up bag?
Dr. Jarts - Black Label detox beauty balm
Mac - Devilishly dark eye shadow x4
Smash box - bronzer
Kahina - Argan oil
For special occasions:
Mac- Ruby Woo red lipstick
Clinique - cake eyeliner
Cafe: Colador and The Black Swan
Pizza take-out: Speedy Romeo
Date
night: used to be Do or Dine :( now Vandal
Cocktails
with girlfriends: not often enough!!
Market: Trader Joe’s
Sweet
treat: Dough
Sunday
outing: hiking in warm weather, beach in
hot weather, museum in cold or rain.
Carla's Townspeople Takeaways:
Principles or politics?
principles
Shower or bath? shower
Coffee or tea? COFFEE!!!
Natural or
treated? Whatever makes you feel good. I've done both and love both
but currently natural.
Loose or fitted?
Fitted out on the town, loose at home
Heels or flats?
Flats
Work out or work less?
Wish I had time for either!!
Both. Sometimes you need some country
living to appreciate the hustle of the city
Finishing Quote:
"If my day were a short story the
title would read:
I'm
still learning.”
CARLA LICAVOLI
Email: carla@littlestarstudionyc.com
Phone: +1.6462074748
Interview by Crystal Granderson-Reid
Townspeople ©
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